Episode Description:
This is a From the Archive episode with Seth Godin.
Seth Godin returns to the show for a conversation about making work that matters in a world obsessed with hits, rankings, followers, algorithms, and approval.
James opens by talking about Seth’s long body of work: Purple Cow, Linchpin, Graceful, thousands of blog posts, and Seth’s then-new podcast Akimbo. Seth explains why he had thought about podcasting for years but resisted it because audio creates a different kind of intimacy. In print, the voice in the reader’s head is the reader’s own voice. In audio, the voice belongs to the person speaking.
That intimacy made podcasting powerful, but also something Seth wanted to handle carefully.
From there, James asks about the structure of Akimbo. Seth says the key to a strong solo format is assertion. What are you saying that is not obvious? What are you asking people to see differently? If you cannot make the point in 15 minutes, maybe you cannot make it at all.
The conversation then moves into hits. Seth explains that platforms benefit from the long tail, but creators can suffer inside it. Amazon, iTunes, Facebook, Twitter, and other platforms need endless creators to show up with work, but they also train people to believe that if they do not hit number one, they failed.
Seth’s alternative is the smallest viable audience. Find the specific group you seek to serve. If it is 500 people, make something so good for those 500 people that they cannot help but tell someone else. That is more useful than chasing a vague mass audience or gaming a category so you can call yourself a bestseller.
James and Seth connect this to Purple Cow. The book spread because Seth gave people a phrase they could use in a meeting. A “purple cow” became a way to describe something remarkable before people necessarily knew where the phrase came from.
That is a key idea in the episode: every hit changes the people it touches. It does not simply entertain. It gives people a new belief, a new language, or a new way to see.
Seth also explains the deeper forces under a lot of culture: fear and status. Fear keeps people from doing work that might not work. Status makes people compare themselves to the wrong people and measure the wrong things. The creator’s job is to notice both, then act generously anyway.
The episode closes with the craft itself. Seth says he does not check blog stats, does not read Amazon reviews, and does not shape his work around critics. The question is simpler: Did you change someone for the better in a way you are proud of?
If yes, do it again.
Editorial Note:
This is a From the Archive episode. References to Akimbo as a newer podcast, This Is Marketing as an upcoming book, the altMBA, platform dynamics, bestseller lists, podcasting, and Seth’s then-current projects reflect the original recording period.
What You’ll Learn:
- Why Seth Godin resisted podcasting for years.
- How audio creates a different kind of intimacy than writing.
- Why a solo podcast needs a clear assertion.
- Why Seth focuses on overlooked, underthought, ignored, or uncomfortable ideas.
- Why platforms benefit from the long tail more than most creators do.
- Why chasing hits can distort the work.
- What Seth means by the “smallest viable audience.”
- Why a hit has to change people, not just entertain them.
- How Purple Cow spread by giving people useful language.
- Why trying to avoid criticism often makes work invisible.
- How fear and status shape culture, creativity, marketing, and self-worth.
- Why random events should not be taken personally.
- Why generosity requires emotional labor.
- What it means to choose your customers and choose your future.
- Why second-order teaching matters more to Seth than personal credit.
- Why being “amazing” starts long before the hustle.
- Why the best work lives in the territory of “this might not work.”
- Why Seth does not read reviews or track stats.
- How to protect the craft from outside measurement.
Timestamped Chapters:
[03:19] Seth Godin Returns
James welcomes Seth back and introduces his books, blog, and new podcast Akimbo.
[05:15] Why Seth Started a Podcast
Seth explains that he had thought about podcasting for years, but worried about the intimacy of audio.
[07:05] Choosing the Right Medium
Seth explains why a podcast reaches people differently than writing and why he avoids formats, like Twitter, that do not fit the work he wants to do.
[08:17] The Solo Podcast Format
James asks about Seth being the only guest on Akimbo, and Seth says a solo show needs a strong assertion.
[09:24] Overlooked, Underthought, and Hard to Confront
Seth distinguishes his style from pure contrarianism and says he is drawn to things people have missed or avoided.
[10:47] Hitsville and the Long Tail
James brings up Seth’s Akimbo episode on hits, platforms, Amazon, podcasts, and the explosion of available work.
[12:21] The Trap of Platform Thinking
Seth explains how platforms train creators to feel defective if they do not become number one.
[13:25] Editors Cannot Pick the Hits
Seth argues that people cannot reliably predict hits and that creators should not try to game their way to the top.
[15:00] The Smallest Viable Audience
Seth explains why serving a specific small group can be more powerful than chasing the masses.
[16:21] This Might Not Work
James brings up Seth’s large limited-edition book and how it was built for a specific audience instead of the broad market.
[17:26] Why You Cannot Reverse-Engineer Gangnam Style
Seth explains why many talented people try hard and still do not hit, because hits also involve randomness.
[19:14] Don’t Bet Your Work on Oprah or Bieber
Seth explains why waiting for a powerful person to anoint your work is a bad strategy.
[20:13] Finding the People Who Must Share It
Seth uses the idea of R naught to explain why a small group of people who must tell others can create spread.
[20:35] Why Purple Cow Spread
Seth explains how the milk carton, the title, and the phrase itself helped people talk about the idea.
[22:26] Every Hit Makes a Change Happen
Seth says the real question is: What change are you trying to make in the people who engage with your work?
[23:35] What Akimbo Is Trying to Change
Seth explains that Akimbo is for people who want to think more deeply about culture and change it for the better.
[25:14] Randomness, Fear, and Status
James connects Seth’s episodes, and Seth explains that much of his work is about fear and status.
[27:13] Don’t Take Randomness Personally
Seth says creators should expect that many launches will not become hits and organize their work accordingly.
[28:33] The Craft vs. the Outside World
James and Seth discuss how publishers, reviewers, bestseller lists, rankings, and critics can distract from the actual work.
[29:21] It’s Not for You
Seth explains why broadening a project for everyone can make it average, and why creators should be willing to say who the work is for.
[32:29] What Will You Do With the Microphone?
Seth says he wakes up thinking about the people he seeks to serve, not how to increase traffic or revenue.
[33:30] Why Seth Ignores Stats and Reviews
Seth explains that he does not check blog traffic, book sales, or Amazon reviews because that helps him keep doing the work.
[34:43] Choose Your Customers, Choose Your Future
Seth gives the six-word version of audience selection and explains why customers shape the work.
[35:04] Thirsty, Dissatisfied, and Generous
Seth describes his ideal audience and explains generosity as emotional labor in service of other people.
[37:22] Second-Order Teaching
Seth says he wants to be judged not by his work, but by what people who learned from him teach others.
[38:18] Be the Person They Want to Find
Seth explains why the real work happens before SEO, LinkedIn tactics, or hustle.
[40:02] How Do You Become Amazing?
James asks the direct question, and Seth says the essence is confronting fear and doing emotional labor.
[41:00] Where Art and Innovation Live
Seth says the work that might not work is where generosity, art, innovation, and magic happen.
[42:05] Warby Parker and the Risk of Something New
Seth uses Warby Parker as an example of doing something advisors said would not work.
[42:49] How Seth Builds an Episode
Seth explains how a coincidence becomes a podcast: collect stories, find the non-obvious insight, and connect the dots.
[45:07] Seth the Collector
Seth describes himself as someone who collects moments, stories, and observations that may become blog posts or lessons.
[46:34] Self-Awareness and the Craft
James connects Seth’s work to the ability to keep distance between your belief in the craft and society’s measurements.
[47:04] Jiro, Awards, and the Wrong Reward
Seth talks about Jiro Dreams of Sushi and the danger of external validation taking over the craft.
[48:40] Marriage, Space, and Stories
James asks Seth about marriage, and Seth talks about listening, keeping promises, creating space, and the stories people tell themselves.
[52:18] Advice for James’s Podcast
James asks how to change the show, and Seth suggests making one out of every four episodes a solo episode.
[53:08] This Is Marketing and Closing Thoughts
Seth says his next book is This Is Marketing, James recommends Akimbo, and Seth signs off by telling him to keep making a ruckus.
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