General Episode Description:
In this continuation of Selling Intelligence, Mark Petruzzi and KK Anderson sit down with Alan Rudolph, Strategic Advisor at AGS, to explore how sales and marketing alignment, time to value, and retention strategies directly impact enterprise value.
Alan breaks down why misalignment between sales and marketing often starts with a lack of shared ICP definition, and how that disconnect destroys both efficiency and effectiveness. He also shares where AI is creating real leverage today across prospecting, coaching, and personalization, while emphasizing that human judgment remains critical in enterprise sales.
The conversation closes with a deep dive into time to value, gross versus net retention, and the bow tie revenue model, highlighting how leading organizations connect the full customer lifecycle to long-term value creation.
What You’ll Learn:
- Sales and Marketing Alignment: Why ICP clarity is the foundation of both quality pipeline and efficient execution.
- Where AI Actually Works: Practical use cases in prospecting, coaching, and personalization.
- Time to Value (TTV): Why speed to value is now a critical metric owned by the entire organization.
- Retention Metrics That Matter: How gross and net retention signal true business health.
- The Bow Tie Model: How “find, win, keep” connects the full customer journey to enterprise value.
Key Topics:
- Marketing optimizing for volume vs sales needing quality
- The breakdown of lead quality when ICP is not aligned
- AI enhancing research, call coaching, and content personalization
- Limits of autonomous SDRs in enterprise sales today
- Defining and reducing time to value (TTV)
- Gross retention vs net retention and their impact on profitability
- The hidden cost of poor retention on CAC and EBITDA
- Customer journey ownership across the entire organization
- The bow tie revenue framework: find more, win more, keep more
- Why traditional funnel thinking ignores retention
- The importance of cross-functional ownership of the customer lifecycle
- Strategic priorities for CROs: ICP discipline, full revenue ownership, and efficiency as advantage
Guest Spotlight: Alan Rudolph
Alan Rudolph is a Strategic Advisor at AGS with deep experience advising private equity-backed companies and scaling enterprise sales organizations. With a strong operational background at the COO level, Alan specializes in aligning sales, marketing, and customer success to drive measurable enterprise value and long-term growth.
Resources & Mentions:
- AGS (Advisory Growth Strategies)
- Concept: Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) alignment
- Concept: Time to Value (TTV)
- Concept: Gross vs Net Revenue Retention
- Framework: Bow Tie Revenue Model (find, win, keep)
- Concept: AI-assisted sales and marketing workflows
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Mark Petruzzi (00:34)
Alan, let's talk about the marketing side of this equation. Because in our experience at AGS, sales and marketing misalignment is one of the biggest destroyers of both efficiency and effectiveness. What does a well-aligned value creation oriented sales and marketing motion look like? And where does it usually fall apart?
Alan (00:53)
So it's fascinating because when it's working, it just works, right? It's invisible. It doesn't matter. But when it starts to fall apart, It's usually, and this is where we start tying all these pieces together in terms of ICP, because it's the definition of that qualified lead or the quality, maybe said another way of that qualified lead, right? So marketing is always going to optimize for volume, right? Throughput.
not the quality, right? The actual lead that comes in and making sure it's a good lead. And then sales just starts ignoring it. Sales starts going, doing their own thing and marketing thinks they have this great volume and sales is saying, you no, because they're not matching back to the ICP and that shared definition, that quality of how do I bring a great customer in the door?
KK Anderson (01:44)
That makes a lot of sense. And Alan, let's pivot to everyone's favorite topic, AI, for a minute here to round out this topic. So AI is reshaping both how we find customers and how we serve them. And so in terms of this kind of efficiency mandate, where are you seeing AI create real measurable leverage for sales and marketing teams right now?
like in your port codes that you're working with or have worked with in the past, like where's it working and where is it still mostly noise?
Alan (02:14)
three areas are where I see it working. First of all, and let's frame this all in the context of making us humans better, not replacing us humans. let's start there. That's first and foremost. so number one, prospecting and research, right? Who should I be talking to? Who should I be reaching out to? Right? That time spent in building those lists, et cetera. Number two is call intelligence and coaching.
And I can remember, my God, one of the port codes I was working with probably five-ish years ago, actually in the middle of COVID, we started doing call recording. And the value prop around what I can, the takeaway from our calls, right? What worked? What didn't work? How should I change the script, et cetera? Just a huge opportunity for training, for coaching, for getting much more effective results out of our calls.
you know, again, huge in terms of intelligence and coaching. lastly, content personalization at scale, right? Using AI to tailor the case study, to tailor the solution definition, to tailor, the whole presentation, to make sure that it matches specifically, you know, to that, that prospect we're going, going after. So it's not noise.
It is real. AI is real. The one thing I would stay away from, right, in terms of what's not working is sort of these autonomous SDRs, right? Because it just, it's not there yet. know, tomorrow is, we don't know, but it's just not there yet. Again, it comes back to, it makes us all better. It makes humans better, but it doesn't replace that human judgment.
That is so important in a high stakes enterprise class sale.
Mark Petruzzi (04:02)
Excellent, Alan. All right, well, let's move us into our final topic, time to value retention and the revenue bow tie. Earlier on, Alan, you introduced us to the concept of time to value, TTV, as a critical metric that most sales leaders do not own, but absolutely should. Please define TTV for our audience and make the case for why it belongs on the sales leader scorecard.
not just customer success.
Alan (04:29)
Absolutely. So TTV is, as you said, Mark, time to value. It's how quickly can I get from that contract signature to value from the solution, whatever that means, right, in terms of the solution up and running. And I can remember going back in my career, we'd be talking six, nine, 12 months. And customers want 15, 30, 45 days. So it's just so critical that the
Really, and I'm going to broaden it between customer, beyond just customer success and sales, the whole organization, the whole executive leadership team needs to get focused in on how do I define a solution, sell a solution and drive that solution to quote unquote live to value with the customer as quickly as possible. And that's what TTV is all about.
And that's why it needs to be both on the seller scorecard as well as the success scorecard. And it's going to tie right back into the bow tie. So it's just, it's, it's, you think about a customer journey, right. And I'm drawing a circle here because the customer journey is in fact, is a circle, right? We find a customer, we win the customer, we keep the customer. And it's so important that the, that whole journey.
that the executive leadership team is, you know, it's on the scorecard. They're evaluated on the success of driving TTV as low as possible.
KK Anderson (05:55)
That makes a lot of sense. so building on TTV, right? And thinking about, you know, gross retention versus net retention. So walk us through, if you would, the gross retention versus net retention, you know.
Alan (06:04)
Mm-hmm.
KK Anderson (06:11)
concepts, right? So thinking, you know, at AGS, we see this constantly. A team will sell aggressively. They'll hit their new logo acquisition number. But gross retention is quietly eroding in the background, right? So what does that diagnostic conversation sound like with the CEO or a board of directors when those two numbers start to diverge? And I know, know TTV fits into that for sure, but
How do you fix that? How do you fix it when your gross retention is not aligned with your net retention?
Alan (06:43)
Sure. So let's go back to definitional, right? So gross retention
is I open my doors on day one of the year. If I have a dollar and I renew that dollar, that's 100 % gross retention. So let's be clear on definitions here. And then net retention is how much additional do I sell? And depending on how the scorecard is kept, that additional can be everything from a CPI increase, 4%, 5%, 6%, or whatever the number is that you choose.
to true add on to increase in the actual pricing so that when I take the dollar, I renew the dollar. But if I have, you know, an, an, an extra 10 cents, excuse me, of add on now it's a dollar 10. And now I have a net retention of 110%. This whole conversation you hear us talking about this through this whole podcast comes back to selling value.
selling value to my ICP, my ideal customer profile, and making sure the customer is getting that value vis-a-vis the previous topic around TTV as quickly as possible. The more we can tighten in on the combination of the solution along with the ICP and driving that value to the customer, the customer is going to renew, the customer is going to buy more. World class metrics have
Gross retention in the mid to upper 90s. World class metrics have net retention, 110 % plus. That's world class. What happens is if we see net retention, this comes back to the way you phrased the question, KK, if we see that net retention staying that 110 plus, but the gross retention slipping, for example, into the 80s, maybe even only 90, that means we're putting in
Too much pressure on net new sales, right? Too much pressure on selling that more, selling additional, and we're losing that gross retention. And what happens when you lose gross retention, number one is what I just said, too much pressure on the organization overall to get that add on sale. Number two, the overall cost of acquisition goes up. And so inherently, the EBITDA for the organization is getting impacted because I'm selling net new.
and I'm not retaining my bass.
Mark Petruzzi (08:59)
And you know, Alan, I've seen over the years, there's almost this kind of machismo sort of looking at new opportunities and new revenue. And everyone wants to be that hunter that leaves the village and comes back with an antelope on their back, carrying it back to the entire village and everyone gets to eat. But we find in a lot of ways,
It's really the individuals who are out there foraging and growing and doing things in the village are the ones that really keep a village alive much more than the big celebrated hunter that comes in. So it's amazing how that mindset just, it still hasn't gone away. Everybody still thinks a new logo is worth more than additional revenue and an old logo. And it just really doesn't.
Okay, so let's switch to the Bowtie revenue architecture and go a little deeper here. The whole concept of find more, win more, keep more. That's the framework that ties the full customer lifecycle into that single value creation narrative that we started this entire podcast on. How do you use that framework when you walk into a port co or leadership offsite and
Alan (09:52)
Okay.
Mark Petruzzi (10:13)
What does it unlock in that conversation that traditional funnel thinking just absolutely messes?
Alan (10:19)
It misses the keep more, right? The whole premise is, you know, find and win. That just is the beginning of the journey. And I can't lose sight of that keep more, right? The whole discussion we have, and we spent a lot of time in off-sites talking about this is what is the customer journey? to, think about it from a RACI standpoint, right?
Who touches the customer throughout the lifecycle, throughout the customer journey to ensure that the customer is ready, willing, and able to buy more throughout, again, that customer journey, that customer lifecycle? And that's why the bow tie in terms of find, win, keep is so critical and intertwined with this whole discussion of gross and net retention and making sure that the
Whole organization drives value to the customer throughout the entire journey.
KK Anderson (11:13)
Really interesting. Okay, so as we round out this last topic, let's bring it home with a forward looking question, Alan. ⁓ So if you're advising a chief revenue officer or a CEO heading into a new fiscal year, right? They're still navigating a tough SaaS environment, PE pressure on EBITDA, and buyers who are more cautious now than they were three years ago.
Alan (11:20)
Mm-hmm.
KK Anderson (11:36)
What would you say are the two or three moves that separate the leaders who will create enterprise value from those who will just survive?
Alan (11:44)
I sound like so repetitive on number one. Ruthless, ruthless ICP discipline, right? That will just drive tremendous value as we look forward. Number two, and this might be a little bit controversial, own CRO, Chief Revenue Officer. Revenue, not sales, revenue. So own the entire revenue lifecycle. So let's, I don't want to.
KK Anderson (11:44)
Alan (12:09)
We're have a whole other podcast about ⁓ how should a port co be organized. But suffice it to say that an executive leader that owns revenue needs to own that whole lifecycle, needs to own find more, win more, keep more, needs to own the customer journey of driving great value through TTV, as well as making sure we get the renewal signed. And then lastly, if you remember,
half a dozen questions or so ago, we talked about efficiency and effectiveness. Make efficiency a competitive advantage, right? Drive the value. Make sure we understand where the buyers are coming from. Why are they coming through us? How do we drive through the sales cycle as quickly as possible? How do we leverage AI? Right? So you said it, KK. This is the culmination of what we've been talking about throughout this podcast. And it's about
speed and efficiency and effectiveness and pulling that all together into a competitive advantage.
KK Anderson (13:09)
I mean, it all comes together, right? It all comes together. Okay, Alan, we are gonna move on to our favorite part of every podcast we do, the rapid fire questions. And I'm gonna kick us off and then we'll, Mark, you can take the next one, okay? And I can't wait to see what you're gonna say for this first one. Okay, the metric you think every CRO should have tattooed on their wrist.
Alan (13:29)
Net Net retention.
KK Anderson (13:30)
at rest.
Mark Petruzzi (13:32)
Great, so okay, growth or profitability? If you can only optimize one for the next 12 months, which do you pick and why?
Alan (13:40)
So these are all mature companies. So it has to be profitability. I'm not in startup mode, right? So it has to be profitability with an asterisk optimizing for profitable growth, right? So we've talked throughout this podcast about, you know, a successful organization historically was at least rule Now those that that's even, you know, with AI with everything that's going on in the world around us, even growing more. So it's got to be profitable.
And it's got to be growth. And you take the sum of those two, and it's got to be a big number. And I'm going to argue that number, the rule of 40, has gone by the wayside. And we're talking about something in a rule of 50 plus to get to world class valuations.
KK Anderson (14:20)
You heard it here first folks, rule of 40 is no more, rule of 50, here we come. Okay, sales or a business book, Alan, that you think every revenue leader should be reading right now.
Alan (14:32)
So I'm going to take us back in time because I truly, truly believe that relationships are critical to the successful enterprise sale. And there was a guy named Dale Carnegie who wrote an unbelievable book in terms of how to win friends and influence people. And I'm to go back to basics, which it is, but there are just so many learnings in that book about what those relationships mean, how to build them, how to nurture them.
how to deal with those relationships in good time and bad. So it's an old book, it's been around. Hopefully all of us, anybody in sales has seen it, read it, go read it again, and then keep reading it.
KK Anderson (15:10)
I put that book in both of my kids stockings at Christmas this year. fact, fun fact.
Alan (15:13)
Hahaha!
Mark Petruzzi (15:15)
Great, next one, one leadership habit every sales leader should build right now as soon as he can.
Alan (15:22)
Yeah, I have long discussions about balancing between deep dive forecast reviews and structured deal reviews. And I think structured deal reviews capped at a 30 or 60 minute slot adds tremendous value for the leadership team to understand what needs to get done for that deal to win and helps the salesperson bring that deal in.
So again, recommend structured deal reviews by ⁓ strategic deals selected appropriately and going through the win of how do we make sure that deal gets across the finish line.
KK Anderson (16:00)
Love it. Okay, my favorite question. Advice you would give to your 21 year old self. And it can be about building a career and whatnot, but just what would you say?
Alan (16:08)
Learn the ins and outs of the business model, the financial model. And it's really all about what levers. Like take the example I was giving earlier in terms of cost of acquisition and an existing customer versus a new cost or effectively customer acquisition cost or as we call it CAC. So learn the financial model. Understand what drives revenue, what drives costs. How do I ⁓ impact costs? What ultimately drives EBITDA? Right? Most sales leaders
They just can't do it, I hate to say. And so that's a learning that I think is really important. Reach out to me, I'll take you through it. Right? But again, I just think that the core financial model, the better you are at understanding it, the better you'll perform in the board.
Mark Petruzzi (16:52)
All right, our final one. The one thing the P community still gets wrong about go to market.
Alan (16:57)
the time it takes to influence or change sales culture. It's hard, right? The operational fixes, the process changes, the people, everything that goes into an overall sales culture that drives all the metrics we've been talking about through this podcast, it just, you know, most boards, most PE firms think they can snap their fingers and it's going to change.
and for us as practitioners in the market, ⁓ can we get to the change? Yes. Does it take longer? Absolutely.
KK Anderson (17:31)
Realistically, we always say it's 12 to 18 months and I know it's hard for people to hear that. and you know, we can do sprints that have meaningful impact on acceleration, but it does. A true sales transformation and culture shift takes 12 to 18 months.
Alan (17:37)
Board don't like that.
Yep, 100 % agree.
Mark Petruzzi (17:49)
All right, well, Alan, this has been an extraordinary conversation. It was the kind that audiences will be referencing long after they listen. ⁓ We will be referencing it long after we listen. So for everyone tuning in, if you took one thing from today, let it be this. Enterprise value is not just a finance concept. It really is the basis of what we're all out here doing. Why we work as hard as we do.
why we jump on planes at six o'clock in the morning and, you know, jump back on a flight at 11 or midnight. So if you can look at it that way, you really as a sales leader, learn to speak the language of the board, because again, that's the thing that they need. That's the thing that they're focused on. And that's where their fiduciary responsibility is as well. So
It is really the outcome of every decision a sales leader makes about how to find customers, how to win them, how to keep them, how to grow them, how to keep them becoming happier every single day. Allen has given us the framework to talk about all of these concepts.
KK Anderson (18:59)
All right, Alan, wonderful conversation. And to our great audience, you can connect with Alan through AGS at get-ags.com. That's get and then the dash symbol, ags.com. And we will include all of his contact information in the show notes and also an area where they can connect to you on LinkedIn, Alan, if that's perfect.
Alan (19:20)
Yep, absolutely.
KK Anderson (19:22)
Okay, and if this episode shifted how you think about the sales leader's role in value creation, share it. Like and subscribe. Share it with a CRO or a CEO who needs to hear it. And we will see you next time on Selling Intelligence.
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